Getting ripped off by Phoenix Saab Croydon.........

I'm writing this update having just MOT'd the car in question........

When Phoenix Saab Croydon serviced the car in 2008, they stated the following work was required:

• O/S inner and outer gaiters leaking grease - requires new kit and reseals - £225.87
• Rear shoes require inspection and rear pads remove and deglaze - £119.85
• Front pads 50-60% worn and disks lipped - £382.60

Total work required - £728.32

I've just had the car MOT'd by Kwik Fit. Their service was excellent and..... guess what...........

• The gaiters were fine, although one needed a new metal clip, which they did for free!!
• Rear disks and pads fine - now work needed!
• Front disks and pads replaced - £195. Moreover, Kwik Fit give a lifetime guarantee on the pads, which means I'll never have to buy another set of front pads for that car!!

So, of the £728.32 quoted by Phoenix Saab, only the front brakes needed work, meaning that £345.72 was a total rip-off and instead of paying £382.60 for the front brakes, I paid about HALF that - only £195 with Kwik Fit.

Unbelieveable isn't it..........? What a bunch of total rip-off merchants!! £728 versus £195 - can you believe it?

My advice is simple - don't go use Phoenix Saab Croydon unless you can afford to pay vastly more than necessary and are prepared to be charged for work that doesn't need doing.

Here's my reply to Phoenix Saab Croydon's letter of 30th June

Without prejudice

Robin Day
Group Aftersales Manager
Phoenix Group
80 Plough Lane
Wimbledon
London
SW17 0BW


13th July 2008


Dear Mr Day

Reference: your letter of 30th June 2009

Thank you for your letter. I note your points with interest and will post it, in its entirety on my blog, as you obviously have a right of reply in this matter.

I would respond as follows:

You state that:
The core of [my] complaint lies with the manufacturer, rather than Phoenix as a garage, due to the fact that Saab will not pay for the bill or contribute to the cost of [the] repairs.

This is fundamentally incorrect! The core of my complaint is the very poor levels of service I have received from Phoenix in this matter and this is what I have documented at every stage to date, both on my blog and in my previous letter to you – I find it amazing that you have failed to recognise this fact and attempted to remedy it.

Your website states:

Aftersales
We make it easy to ensure your vehicle stays in the best working order and continues to deliver a premium driving experience. In addition to the highest quality workmanship, you can expect aftersales customer service that is second to none.

Frankly, I have never experienced such terrible customer service, ever, in my life!

Let me be clear here – I am not asking you to pay for the repairs and I never have. I have a warranty and, if the reports are true, then it’s a Saab problem anyway and, in this case, you are correct - Saab should pay for the repairs, anyway.

All I ever wanted (and expected) Phoenix to do was get this sorted for me, after all you are trying to charge me well in excess of £1,000 for the work, so a few phone calls doesn’t seem like an excessive effort if your aftersales customer service is anything close to decent, let alone “second to none”!!
Let me be candid with you - so far, I have put very little effort into this blog. As of today, a search of “Phoenix Saab Croydon” on Google.co.uk yields the following results:

You - #1
You - #2
Me - #3
Me - #4

Other combinations of these (and other) words yield similar results, which means that anyone trying to find you via Google will also find me and, incidentally, a few others who have not had a great experience dealing with you!

You’ve made it clear that you’re not interested in sorting this out, so I’m just going to post this letter on my blog and Google optimise it, so that my rankings continue to climb. Then I’m going to get the problem sorted by somebody else and blog about how good their service is, compared to yours, and we’ll leave it at that – I’ve learned my lesson with you and I’ll share my findings with the world via the Internet.

Yours sincerely

Phoenix Saab Croydon have written to me again about my service problems

In essence, Phoenix Saab Croydon are trying to wash their hands of this and pass the buck to Saab UK.

Phoenix Saab Croydon seem to be refusing to acknowledge that they have messed me around - quite amazing!

Action at last, of sorts - a letter from Phoenix Saab Croydon..........

Today, Friday 27th June, I received a letter dated 19th June from a Mr Robin Day, the Group Aftersales Manager for the Phoenix Group.



I'll let you read it and make up your own mind (my response is below):

As it's quite hard to read, here's a transcript:

Mr Rory Muxxxx

19th June 2008

Dear Mr Muxxxx

Reference: Inspection at Phoenix Croydon

Further to your email to Ubhi Hxxx at our Croydon site, the content of your recent blog concerning your experience at Phoenix Croydon has been brought to my attention.

I have carried out a full investigation into the events surrounding your vehicle's repairs and my findings are outlined below:

- There is no known concern with Saabs relating to the timing chain.

- At no point did we say that the engine was stripped. Confirmation of this is that we would have charged you to strip the engine if this operation had been carried out.

- The Vehicle Condition Report does not state that the vehicle was dangerous to drive.

The above facts confirm that your allegations are untrue and potentially damaging with no evidence in support of them. Therefore, I advise that you remove this blog with immediate effect or we will have no option but to seek legal advice.

Yours sincerely

Robin Day

Group Aftersales Manager

So, Phoenix have now taken a stance of sorts, even if it is factually incorrect and just tells me to shut up and stop publicising my problems with their service and approach to customer satisfaction.

The text of my response is below:

Without prejudice

Robin Day
Group Aftersales Manager
Phoenix Group
80 Plough Lane
Wimbledon
London
SW17 0BW


30th June 2008


Dear Mr Day

Reference: your letter of 19th June 2009

Thank you for your letter. I note your points with interest and will post it, in its entirety on my blog, as you obviously have a right of reply in this matter.

I would respond to your points, as follows:

1. I have at no point emailed Ubhi Harpal, as you state in your letter. I initially tried to speak to Mr Jeffery, in order to raise my concerns with him directly, as the business owner. I was passed to a Mr Prince by his P.A. Mr Prince, in turn, passed me to Mr Harpal, who I have now had a number of conversations with. He has always appeared helpful, but has never actually done anything tangible to try and resolve this matter.
2. If, as you state, there is no known concern with Saabs relating to the timing chain, then how do you explain the article in What Car? magazine which specifically refers to this problem. There is a link to this article within the blog.
3. I was told by Pete in your Service Department that my car had been prepared in accordance with the instructions of the warranty engineer. The warranty engineer, in turn, refers to the fact that, when he visited, the car had not been prepared (i.e. partially dismantled) in accordance with his instructions. Furthermore, I was told by Pete that the car had been “put back together and was now ready for collection” – which clearly suggested that at some previous point it had been something other than together. This is all detailed in a factual manner within the blog.
4. I was told that the car was not safe to drive when I asked if I could use it for the weekend and that it was best to leave it at the garage over the weekend until the engineer could look at it. Again, the blog is quite clear about this.

In summary, it would appear that your “full investigation” was not particularly thorough and that the contents of your letter are factually incorrect.


Your website states:
Aftersales
We make it easy to ensure your vehicle stays in the best working order and continues to deliver a premium driving experience. In addition to the highest quality workmanship, you can expect aftersales customer service that is second to none.

It is unfortunate that, rather than trying to provide the levels of customer satisfaction that you seem to promote on your website, you have instead tried to avoid dealing with this issue, despite the fact that it would clearly be financially lucrative for you to have addressed the matter in a professional and efficient manner. I had initially hoped that you would be on my side in sorting this matter out, thereby ensuring many years of regular business from me and referrals to others.

We, as consumers, place a lot of trust in garages when we put our cars in for a service. We trust you to:

- Tell us the truth
- Not overcharge us
- Be honest about additional work that needs doing
- Treat us as you would expect to be treated
- Etc……. in other words, be fair and reasonable.


As a consumer, I feel I have very little “traction” and an extremely limited ability to ensure that you treat me fairly. In this case, as a big company, you are clearly using your position to exert influence over me and get your own way, despite the fact that this is not the best outcome for me as a customer.

The point of this blog is to highlight the quality of service I have been receiving from your garage, so that others are able to make their own, informed decisions about dealing with your organisation, based on my experiences. The advent of the web has enabled people like me to have their say and be heard which, in this case, is clearly an uncomfortable experience for an organisation such as yours, when you would prefer that your failings aren’t aired in public.

At the end of the day, all I am looking for is a satisfactory outcome and, as one person versus a large company, I am using the tools at my disposal to “level the playing field”.

Furthermore, I am certain that if you choose to seek legal advice, you will be advised that the contents of my blog are within the law and that my comments constitute “Fair comment”. I am also confident that the costs you will incur in doing so will exceed the costs of resolving this problem.

I had hoped that, since the problems that my car exhibits are clearly documented by others, including authoritative motoring publications, you would seek to resolve this with Saab and provide me with a satisfactory outcome, which I would have been more than happy to publicise to your ultimate benefit.

However, since you appear to have chosen to put your efforts into trying to silence me instead, rather than seeking to provide customer satisfaction, it entirely possible that this matter will be long, drawn out and acrimonious, with every aspect documented on the web.

One thing you need to be aware of is that over time, these types of blog become more difficult to remove, as the search engines index and cache them.

I am happy to have an “off-the-record” conversation with you, if you feel that it would be preferable to try and resolve this matter amicably. I can be contacted on 07813 xxxxxx or at xxxx@gmail.com.

Yours sincerely



Rory Muxxxx

I'll leave you to make up your own mind about the service I have received from Phoenix Saab Croydon and their Head Office in Wimbledon so far.........

If you'd like to vote on how you feel about this, there are two polls to the right.

The blog continues...........

26 June 2008 Update - Still not heard from Phoenix Saab Croydon

As yet another week is nearing its end, I am still waiting to hear back from the Service Manager at Phoenix Saab Croydon.

This afternoon I left a message for him, so hopefully he will get back to me........

22/6/08 - A quick update on Phoenix Saab Croydon.........

..... or not, as the case may be!

Last week I received "update" calls from the Service Manage at Phoenix Saab Croydon on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday evening.

Monday he told me he was going to speak to Saab about what seems to be an inherent fault with the car, both in terms of the head gasket leak and the timing chain problem.

Tuesday, he called me to explain that, due to a bomb alert across the road, he'd not accomplished much that day. I guess it's a bit more credible than "The dog ate my homework"!

Wednesday, he called to say he was still waiting to hear back - no news........

I heard nothing on Thursday, although it is my understanding that he may have had a visit from Saab Head Office that day.

And I heard nothing on Friday either...........

So, where are we.......? Well, the weather is lovely - perfect for putting the roof down on my shiny Saab 9-3!! However, due to the fact that it's probably not a good idea to drive the car, the best I can do is wash it and then watch the sunlight reflecting off the gleaming bodywork!!

The saga continues - I'll let you know what Phoenix Saab do next!

16th June 2008 - The Phoenix Saab Croydon saga continues

This afternoon, the Service Manager for Phoenix Croydon called me.

He had discussed the matter with P at some length (apparently) and wanted to set the record straight on a couple of points, but also to discuss how we moved this forwards.

The Service Manager denied that the warranty engineer had explicitly requested that the engine be dismantled in a particular way, as described by the engineer in his report and, according to the warranty company, invery specific detail at the time he booked an appointment to visit - somebody is lying and I know who my money is on.

He went on to say that stripping it down in this way would not have helped with diagnostics, but would have cost £300-400 (how he knew what the engineer had described if this hadn't happened remains a mystery!). I was never asked to authorise this work, so they clearly didn't even bother having the conversation with me about it, they simply decided not to do as they had been asked.

The service manager wanted to see the car back again, as it was probable that the oil leak would again be visible and that this may help to discover where the leak was coming from - a slow leak from the head gasket is still suspected, apparently.

He was suprised to hear that Saab 93s had a documented history of oil starvation to the timing chain and said he would investigate this further and speak to Saab in the morning and get back to me.

So, there we are. No further forward, but at least they seem to be doing something!

Saab 93 2.0 litre engine problem

From the emails received so far (THANKS!), it appears that there is a well known and well documented fault with the Saab 93 2.0 litre engine, which I didn't know about when I bought the car, unfortunately!

Which means that all the messing around by Phoenix Saab Croydon's Service Department and the excuses were quite possibly just lies to avoid having to rectify the problem - a known problem!! I may be wrong on this and they have denied knowing about it, but I am left wondering how a Saab main dealer can be ignorant of a fault that has been documented by What Car? Magazine.

In my original blog, I linked to this What Car? article on Saab 9-3 ('98-'02) 2.0-litre engine which describes why a timing chain that lasts around 200,000 miles on some cars only lasts about 60,000 miles on the Saab 9-3.

In view of this, it seems that the advice given to me by the garage, who didn't at any time mention that this is a known and documented fault was even more unprofessional than I have previously feared. Especially as P stated that they had another 9-3 in with a timing chain problem at the same time as mine........

Is it just me, or does it really feel like a Saab Main Dealer should have had the guts and professionalism to own up and tell the truth about this........? Am I being naive to expect them to tell the truth........? Maybe they genuinely didn't know about this known and documented fault - it's a possibility.

Phoenix Croydon Saab Main Dealer May Have Risked Our Lives

I'd like people to make their own minds up on the content of this blog. The events described in this blog are as I remember them and the content is taken from notes made at the time, but are clearly my word against theirs. Please read on and make your own mind up....... you can vote on the right about what you think.......

In February 2008, I bought a Saab 93 Convertible from 4Front on the A20 Sidcup Road.

On Thursday 10th April 2008 I dropped my Saab 93 off for a scheduled 54,000 mile service at Phoenix Saab Croydon, south London, a Saab Main Dealer.

That afternoon, I was contacted by a member of staff I shall call "P" to tell me that they had found a number of faults, some minor, but one major - the timing chain was noisy and therefore probably needed changing - I have linked to Wikipedia for more info on what a timing chain is but, in essence, it keeps all the key parts of the engine synchronised and, if it fails, the engine's moving parts will rip themselves and eachother apart and the car will come to a rapid halt - imagine if this happened on a motorway, at speed, causing a multi-car pile-up and my kids were in the back........... it doesn't need thinking about, does it?

Generally, a timing chain of this type would be expected to last "the life of the car" - in Toyotas you can apparently expect around 200,000 miles.

And yet, mine was apparently on its way out at 54,000 miles!!

I have since found out that premature timing chain wear is a known problem in Saab 9-3s, so buyer beware!! Saab UK are apparently aware of this, but what are they doing anything about it........?

Here are three links to further information about these and other Saab issues:

http://www.whatcar.com/news-special-report.aspx?NA=226769&EL=3205188
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=39607
http://www.saab9-3bulkhead.com/

Anyway, back to my story.......

I told "P" from the Service Department at Phoenix Croydon that I had bought an extended warranty with my car and asked him what the process was to get it sorted out, he told me it shouldn't be a problem......... famous last words!

Next day (Friday), when it became clear that it wouldn't be possible to get it inspected by an engineer from the warranty company until the following week, I asked him if I could have the car back for the weekend. P put me on hold, to speak to a Manager, and then came back and told me categorically that because of the faulty timing chain, the car was unsafe to drive and shouldn't be moved.

The following week, I was told that the timing chain problem was probably due to oil starvation as a result of a head gasket failure, which had caused an oil leak and this meant that the timing chain had not been properly lubricated. I was told that in order to diagnose this properly, it would be necessary to steam clean the engine at a cost of £61.20 + VAT and then wait to observe the source of the oil leak. So I approved this.

Through the week, we had a number of conversations along the lines of:

• "We have requested an inspection engineer but they haven't come back to us yet"
• "The engineer was booked but hasn't come"
• "We have prepared the car as requested and are just waiting for the engineer" (remember this one it's important later!)

It gets to Friday (18th April) they've had my car for over a week and we're still no nearer a resolution.........

On Monday afternoon, I received a call out of the blue to say "your car is ready for collection" - how can this be possible?

I spoke to "P" who told me that the engineer from the warranty company had been and had a look and has said "drive it for a couple of weeks and then bring it back" and he'll take another look, "so we've put your car back together and it's ready for collection", P continued....

I said - OK, but you told me it was dangerous to drive! If this is the case, can you clarify how many miles is "a couple of weeks" and then confirm all of this in writing with the warranty company, so that if the timing chain fails we are all covered? "P" confirmed he'd do this (but, to the best of my knowledge, he never did!).

So, I took the car away and drove it for about 1,500 miles and then called P back on 11th June. I spoke to a colleague, who wasn't very helpful and I asked him to get P to call me....... nothing...... for two days!

In the end, having heard nothing from Phoenix Saab Croydon, I telephoned the warranty company to find out what the situation was from their perspective and I was shocked at what I was told! They sent me a copy of the engineer's report - the critical bit is transcribed below - the colour is mine, to help you spot the important bits.......

The engineer's report states:

I attended the above address to do a vehicle inspection as instructed, after doing a general vehicle condition check which was found to be in a clean general condition, I went on to examine the specific faults and found the following:

1 Rang dealer to say that I was on the way to them and any problems please contact me back. No reply received. Vehicle parked in the dealers car park, no dismantling having taken place.

2 On arrival at the above dealer the engineer was escorted to the vehicle by the Technician. All vehicle details were taken as written above.

3 The Technician explained that when the vehicle was brought in he found oil down the o/s side of the engine but they decided to steam clean it and therefore there was nothing there for the engineer to observe at the time of the inspection.

Now, let's take a moment to think about this.......

• P told me the car had been dismantled ready for the engineer, the engineer stated that no dismantling had taken place
• P told me that it was necessary to steam clean the engine, the engineer stated that this meant there was nothing for him to see - i.e. the evidence of an oil leak had been removed!!
• Having previously told me the car was dangerous to drive, P was now stating that I should drive the car for a couple of weeks - presumably so that the engineer could see where the oil that Phoenix Croydon had steam cleaned away was leaking from.......

As a result of speaking to the warranty company, I called to speak to the Dealer Principle and I was referred to the Customer Care Manager, who is based at the Phoenix Wimbledon branch. He apologised profusely and told me that he would look into it and either call me back himself, or get the Croydon service manager to call me.

The Croydon service manager called me about 15 minutes later, he didn't really apologise but said he'd look into it, however, he suggested I brought the car back and he'd deal with it personally. I agreed to bring it in the next morning (Saturday 14th June), but after thinking about it overnight, I spoke to him that morning and told him I wanted some answers before I trusted Phoenix Saab Croydon further with my car and my safety.

He stated that he would investigate and get back to me on Monday...... I'll update this blog when I hear more.

In the meantime, I have decided to document the whole thing here, as it may help others to avoid the same risks and problems - not least in being aware of the fact that Saab 9-3s seem to have an oil starvation problem, which causes the timing chain to fail well before it should.

My questions/conclusions from this chain of events so far are:

• It feels like Phoenix Saab Croydon may have deceived me throughout this process and may even have lied to me on a number of occassions - this remains to be clarified, so I reserve judgement
• Somebody (presumably a senior member of staff), at Phoenix Saab Croydon made the conscious decision NOT to strip the car down as requested by the warranty engineer, wasting his time and mine - and potentially risking the safety of everyone in the vehicle through having to drive it to recreate the symptoms with a defective timing chain
• The advice to drive the car was in direct contradiction with previous advice and may have put the lives of me, my family and others at risk when we were in the car (imagine if the timing chain and, therefore, the engine had failed on a fast road causing an accident!!)
• Since this is a known and documented fault with this engine, the garage may have been misleading me in the way they handled the whole matter, or (perhaps worse) they are not aware of the problem that What Car? have documented.......

Please remember that this is how the facts seem at this point in time and I am waiting for an explanation that may clarify things further, but based on the evidence so far, it doesn't look good! Clearly, as the fact become clearer, some of the opinions and my version of events, as stated may be incorrect to one degree or another. If this proves to be the case, I will gladly remove the offending text and I apologise unreservedly in advance for any offence or upset caused.

I will update this blog regularly as and when I have conversations with the warranty company and/or Phoenix and, if necessary, I will also name and shame the warranty company if they start messing me around!